Diary of a Seasteader ([info]seasteading) wrote,
@ 2007-01-12 09:03:00
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Cruise condos
[info]crasch has found a lot of good articles lately, see:



While it's unclear to me what stage of financing these new ships are at, it is quite promising that there are so many ventures. The more people live aboard such ships, the greater the chance that a libertarian-oriented one can be set up. I wonder how to deal with having things on-board that are illegal in the visited cities? Does the mothership stay 24 miles offshore, and just send ferries? Does the ship put all contrabrand on a smaller ship which stays on the high seas (what a pain!)?

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[info]crasch
2007-01-12 06:03 pm UTC (link)
I suspect it all depends on where you plan to disembark. Bermuda, for example, appears to have harsh laws on the issue:

http://bermuda-online.org/illegalimports.htm

"To avoid arrest for any type of illegal narcotics, such as but not limited to liquid ecstasy, magic mushrooms, marijuana, cocaine, heroin, etc. don't import them. There is a zero tolerance policy and crews of cruise ships and drug couriers are known as major importers. Bermuda Police and Customs work very closely with their drug enforcement counterparts in the USA and elsewhere. Despite warnings, arrests and convictions happen every day. Detection systems are now very sophisticated and include drug-sniffing dogs employed for the task at the airport and on cruise ships. Penalties for not complying are very harsh in Bermuda for even the smallest amount, with separate criminal charges for importation, possession, intent to supply and more - and with substantial repercussions elsewhere as well, as their names, passport numbers, social security numbers, and more are circulated to overseas authorities."

Here's more:

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA542LawoftheSeaTreaty.html

"Article 110 of the Law of the Sea Treaty specifies military ships are "not justified in boarding [a foreign ship] unless there is reasonable grounds for suspecting that: (a) the ship is engaged in piracy; (b) the ship is engaged in the slave trade; (c) the ship is engaged in unauthorized broadcasting...; (d) the ship is without nationality or (e) ...the ship is, in reality, of the same nationality as the warship." Boarding of ships involved in the illicit drug trade is also permitted.15

Note that boarding of ships engaged in "unauthorized broadcasts" is considered to be justified, but boarding ships carrying terrorists or weapons of mass destruction is not.

Unauthorized broadcasting, by the way, is not only a justification to board, but for certain countries, a requirement under the treaty.16 Policymakers would be wise to remember that the U.S. has itself engaged in "unauthorized broadcasts," using such vessels as the Coastal Messenger, a mobile transmitting station for Voice of America broadcasts behind the Iron Curtain during the 1950s and 1960s.17"

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[info]patrissimo
2007-01-12 08:43 pm UTC (link)
The only relevant part of UNLOS is that 12 miles from shore is fully controlled by the littoral state, so all of the state's laws apply. It doesn't matter what the rest of the boarding laws are, if you are in port you are in the country and they can do whatever they want to you. And drugs are illegal almost everywhere.

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[info]crasch
2007-01-12 09:11 pm UTC (link)
Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you were asking whether it would be necessary to use a ferry or leave a contraband ship behind, not which of those options would be best.

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[info]patrissimo
2007-01-13 05:47 am UTC (link)
Yeah, that's why I presented two options that involved not having the contrabrand in port. You could also just hide it and risk it, and it's possible they wouldn't bother to hassle you. But they are certainly legally entitled to hassle you, and you'd expect a Free Ship to have a bad rep.

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[info]octal
2007-01-12 07:21 pm UTC (link)
I tried to do the math on these...they actually look more expensive than owning a comparable to single unit small yacht.

I would be a lot more interested in a carnival/celebrity type ship which does hotel condo ownership of normal cheap rooms for investment. That would be better for doing financial analysis of a libertarian community ship.

A smaller ship designed for someone other than looters or rich retirees (ratio of business support services to annual cost being key; anyone with a legitimate high ongoing income is going to want facilities to continue that income...communications, finance, etc) would be interesting. The best market to start is probably to use it in places where shore infrastructure unavailable (remote areas, disaster sites, construction, etc), vs. where the activity is prohibited legally.

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[info]crasch
2007-01-12 10:00 pm UTC (link)

I would be a lot more interested in a carnival/celebrity type ship which does hotel condo ownership of normal cheap rooms for investment.


I agree. The biggest problem would be doing it incrementally. To get cheap, it seems to you would have to go big.

A smaller ship designed for someone other than looters

What do you mean by looters? Like pirates and such?

The best market to start is probably to use it in places where shore infrastructure unavailable (remote areas, disaster sites, construction, etc), vs. where the activity is prohibited legally.

I wonder if such "crew ships" already exist? Floating hospitals may also work--rather than fly patients to distant, scary, foreign hospitals, bring the hospital to them.


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[info]patrissimo
2007-01-13 05:47 am UTC (link)
Yeah, something cheaper would be much better. And which allowed for more working onboard.

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[info]adam__selene
2007-01-19 06:52 am UTC (link)
I recall somewhere the act of ferrying people into international waters for the purpose of engaging in illegal activity, is itself illegal, under U.S. law. I'll have to try googling that up.

Whatever happened to that offshore outsourcing ship?

Also:

<< A company offering controversial "stem cell" injections to hundreds of people from the UK with multiple sclerosis and other neurological diseases is planning to get around a ban on treatment in Ireland by carrying it out in international waters on an overnight ferry. >>
http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/news/0,,1765160,00.html

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(Anonymous)
2007-09-12 01:26 am UTC (link)
just fly to cuba, and go from there

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[info]adam__selene
2007-01-19 07:21 am UTC (link)
Assuming (now or in the future) you can get enough telecommunications (Internet + VOIP) bandwidth to a cruise ship -- it could make a very cool office platform for offshore an gaming operation. I can see the new BoDog Headquarters docking in Limón for the week already.

As for jurisdictional issues of activities on the ship while in territorial waters -- I would think it could easily be negotiated with most ports of call that what happens on the ship stays on the ship and is outside the jurisdiction of the port country. Forget about drug use (policy there should be informal, at your own risk, leave it on the ship); the obvious application of this rule would be to allow the cruise ship to continue operating their casino, serve liquor, etc. I think much of that is already in place and widely practiced. As an aside it would also allow resident businesses to not be subject to varying jurisidictions.

You probably wouldn't be able to dock the BoDog headquarters in Florida, but ports of call in a large number of other countries would welcome the tourism and would go out of their way to insure the ship wishes to make return visits.

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A backdoor to an economic autonomous zone?
[info]adam__selene
2007-01-19 07:35 am UTC (link)
What country would make the best host (flag) for the ship?

Antigua might be a good one, particularly if it is eGaming-related.

A very interesting aside, is that you may be able to negotiate with the host country a status of the ship somewhere between "free trade zone" and full out "autonomous zone". The latter would enable you to set up your own system of governance regulating (or not) businesses established within the zone (ship). I could see countries being much more willing to facilitate this for a ship versus any of their physical territory.

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Re: A backdoor to an economic autonomous zone?
[info]adam__selene
2007-01-19 07:43 am UTC (link)
Ship governance can be entirely founded in contract, however what I mean more is that a business operating from the ship would not be considered operating strictly under Antigua law, at least as viewed by the Antiguan government. You wouldn't need an Antiguan business license and follow Antiguan labor laws, etc, etc, the ship would need autonomy with such regards. Quite an obvious requirement. The less obvious would be an emergence of an independent jurisidiction that may evolve its own financial system.

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Re: A backdoor to an economic autonomous zone?
[info]octal
2007-01-22 06:07 am UTC (link)
As it requires a huge cruise ship to have decent economies of scale, I think the best way to start is to split the ship...normal tourist market, condos for investment, retirees, etc., and then also a deck of high tech suites and condos set up as an economic free zone.

Another interesting idea (to me) is gaming, etc. Between cruise ships of the same fleet.

To have reasonable at sea comms, you need ka band coverage worldwide, which is what I am working on now (mena/ap to start). Shore, microwave/ss/umts is fine.

The key I think is partnering with an existing real cruise ship or shipping company, and focusing on things like comms, gaming, entertainment, telemedicine, etc. Which add value for their normal pax, in exchange for space and other resources. Since this would let them differentiate and go for younger, higher income pax than would otherwise cruise, I think it would be a win.

Then at some point one of the smaller ships could be dedicated to a specific routing.

As for using ships asa floating bases for onshore processing, it is widely done in fishing, oil, timber, and military operations; applying it to civilian disaster and reconstruction work is a small step.

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[info]adam__selene
2007-01-27 08:55 am UTC (link)
How do they deal with the issue that a ship has a limited service lifetime?

You own the condo, but someday in the foreseable future the ship on which that condo is will be scrap metal.

Does the ship have a pre-ordained date to be put to rest?

An unusual realestate investment given the condo will reach a point where it begins to depreciates in value (to zero).

Unless the condo come with rights to equal space in some successor ship?

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[info]mdude1350
2007-02-26 01:34 am UTC (link)
Or the condos could be removeable.

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[info]patrissimo
2007-07-26 11:42 pm UTC (link)
For Magellan, which has pretty detailed financing worked out (they say they will start construction soon, and it will take 3 years, they are taking reservations), you don't actually buy your condo, you get a 100-year lease. 100-years is the expected lifetime of the ship. However, the second 50 years may be spent in a permanent mooring like the QE in Long Beach.

So you are buying a temporary asset, like when you build on land you only have a 99-year lease to but don't own. Which reduces the value of the asset, certainly. But I don't think it's necessary to offer people rights to equal space in a successor ship - they will just have to buy a new condo in that many years. Instead of adding on the extra cost, they can just stick the money in the stock market, in case they change their mind when the time comes. Seems more flexible.

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Interesting post
(Anonymous)
2007-02-03 07:17 pm UTC (link)
Your article is very informative and helped me further.

Thanks, David

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